I am annoyed! - rant

[mom2LLL]

Ok I just have to rant about a conversation that I had with my sister today. She is going to a B&M school and is taking 6 classes this semester and is totally stressed out. I told her that I looked at her college online and saw that they accepted CLEP and other alternative education credits. She is taking Human Growth and Development at the same time I am CLEPing it. So she says, well I need to really take the class because I need to learn and absorb this information because it is part of my degree. I guess she thinks that she would be getting more out of the class from writing papers and trying hard to impress her professor and regurgitate information that she will lose as soon as she takes the final. I guess I am annoyed that she thinks that me taking the test will not give me as much information as she gets. The funny thing is that I probably know more now about it having 3 kids than she does having none.

OK - I know that I am being totally unreasonable, but I feel better now!

Thanks for listening to my rant.

Kim

[SimonTam]

Make a deal with her. Offer to pay for her to take the CLEP for the class she is taking immediately after she finishes the class. If she gets a higher score, she learned more. If you have the higher score, insist she take more CLEPS and pays you back for the test. It would be an interesting comparison.

[spazz]

Originally Posted by SimonTam

Make a deal with her. Offer to pay for her to take the CLEP for the class she is taking immediately after she finishes the class. If she gets a higher score, she learned more. If you have the higher score, insist she take more CLEPS and pays you back for the test. It would be an interesting comparison.

One problem with that is you are assuming that the CLEP covers the best sorted material. An assumption you are not allowed to make !!!

Not to make the situation any worse for you (I do not know how your sister came across to you). But I would have to agree with her, if it is a class I need for my major and has many practical applications which I will be dealing with daily. I would rather sit for the class, then fool around with the CLEP. Simply because people do not learn by studying the test. You would learn much more in a lecture/lab based class then if you're simply studying a subject directed towards acing a particular test.

[SimonTam]

Originally Posted by spazz

One problem with that is you are assuming that the CLEP covers the best sorted material. An assumption you are not allowed to make !!!

I'm curious why you believe it is an assumption that I'm not allowed to make. I actually replied based upon the FACT that the college board designs these tests so that a person who just finished the class with a 'C' grade scores close to a 50 on the exam. I believe after a test is developed that the college board has students who recently took the class and made various grades, take the test and the college board adjusts it accordingly.

However the sister wishes to get her education and what is best for her, is of course the most important factor. Maybe I shouldn't have said 'insist' in my earlier reply. But, it still would be an interesting comparison.

I had written a rather lengthy reply on sitting for classes and how professors gauge a student's knowledge or retention after finishing a course, but I deleted it all. I'm not going to argue with you Spazz. In fact, immediately after I post this, I'm adding you to my ignore list.
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[timiny]

Keep in mind that everyone learns differently. Whether or not to test out of classes that are prereqs for later classes in your degree should be considered on an individual basis.

Testing out is not for everyone. Some people need the interaction of a classroom setting to really get the material. You would be amazed how much discussing concepts can help ingrain them in your memory. If she feels more comfortable sitting through the class, good for her. She may well get more out of the class that way.

Testing out of classes that go towards your primary area of study can hurt you if you are the type of person that is simply good at taking standardized tests. Some people can cram for an exam, take the test, pass and if you quiz them 2 months later...their stumped. Keep in mind, on many of the tests you can concentrate your study on the area that has the heaviest coverage and pass without knowing a thing about some topics.

On the flip side, if your one of the self motivated people who can truly learn the material on their own and not just learn enough to pass the test then I see no harm in testing out of a class that goes towards your primary area of study.

[snazzlefrag]

I know some graduates of conventional 4-year Bricks & Mortar schools who are as thick as two short planks. They don't KNOW much at all. They have a piece of paper that certifies that they attended classes, but their apparent lack of knowledge certifies that they didn't actually learn very much in those classes. Or, at least, they didn't RETAIN very much.

In addition, I know some graduates of conventional 4-year Bricks & Mortar schools who are bloated with knowledge, but have not an ounce of wisdom, discernment, or common sense.

It's not about the mode of learning...it's about the LEARNER.

Someone who is a highly self-motivated and self-disciplined learner will learn, and learn WELL, regardless of the mode of learning.

It is possible that someone who is not self-motivated and self-disciplined could pass either an exam OR a course, and yet not have LEARNED very much at all.

Some young students, inevitably, are going to Bricks & Mortar schools simply because:

- They have nothing better to do.
- They want to delay entering the workforce.
- It is 'expected of them'.
- It's PARTY TIME!
- Their parents are making them do it.
- Their parents are paying their way.
- All their friends are doing it.
- Everyone else in their family did it.

Invariably, older students who are earning their degree via distance-learning, self-study, part-time school, or equivalency exams are doing it DESPITE the fact that:

- They have lots of equally important things going on in there lives.
- They are already in the workforce, and have been for years.
- Nobody 'expects' them to go to college.
- Studying takes up all their free time (on top of work, family, and other commitments).
- Nobody is making them do it.
- Nobody else is paying their way.
- None of their friends are doing it.
- Nobody else in their family has ever done it before.

About 68% of the B&M students in the reference groups, who took the CLEP/DANTES exams right after passing the equivalent B&M courses, could only muster enough knowledge to earn a 'C' grade (or approximately, the minimum passing score).

This, IN SPITE OF having sat in a class three times a week, for the last sixteen weeks. This, IN SPITE OF having to complete reading assignments, term papers, midterms, and finals. This, IN SPITE OF having a professional tutor, an expert in the field, supposedly doing everything they can think of to motivate their students, and ensure that they LEARNED the subject matter.

That speaks volumes!

If someone scores a 65 on a CLEP, they scored higher than about 93% of the B&M reference group students scored on that same exam.

That speaks volumes!

Of course, different people are going to be able to learn information better depending on the METHOD of learning. Some people prefer to learn in certain ways. Some people simply DO BETTER with certain learning methods. But to assume that one method is INHERENTLY more effective than any other, is a flawed assumption.

Can certain people pass a B&M course and not actually learn very much? Yep!
Can certain people pass a CLEP exam and not actually learn very much? Yep!

I say it again, it's not about the mode of learning...it's about the LEARNER!

Someone who is looking to 'breeze through' will be unlikely to retain much knowledge after studying for a CLEP. That same person, lacking the necessary self-motivation and self-discipline, will be unlikely to retain much knowledge after taking a course either. Because it's not about the mode of learning...it's about the LEARNER!

Thanks for listening,
Snazzlefrag

[timiny]

Originally Posted by snazzlefrag

I say it again, it's not about the mode of learning...it's about the LEARNER!

I couldn't agree more!

[mom2LLL]

Wow did I start a discussion. I understand why my sister feels the way she does. I think it is just like so many of us who don't believe that we can take a test and get college credit without going to a class. Like it is either too good to be true or I am not smart enough.... That is, until we take and pass the first test.

My sister has literally been in school for 10 years now (on and off of course). She isn't a traditional student and I think she just can't look out of the box. She is an extremely smart overachiever who would probably knock the socks off of the tests, but has fears - just like I did before my first test. I chose to go to TESC because I needed the flexibility with my family. She doesn't have any children yet so it is easier for her to go the traditional way - it is what she knows and feels comfortable with. Just like with anyone you love, I just hate to see her work so hard when there is an easier way. But I realize it is her decision.

I just was upset at the insinuation that she would learn more than I would taking the test. That is all. BTW - I think it would be interesting for her to take the CLEP after and see how she does. Maybe I will bring it up light-heartedly and see what she says.

Thanks for all the comments!

Kim

[spazz]

You are assuming the college board is the standard, which is not true. That is like saying upenn's business center is so much above the standard that they are actually very uneducated. Which obviously is not logical. The CLEP test is very brief and upfront, in other words VERY superficial, which is the way most of these "tests" are going to be, for one reason, they have to base the test around a superficial topic, because they are assuming anyone will be able to study and pass the test.

For this reason alone, you will get a better education in an actual traditional school because you will be learning not only the superficial topics but whatever your professors experienced and whatever their research interests are.

[dhlvrsn]

"you will get a better education because..."


I've taken classes pretty much every way possible. I'll put my self study from many different sources against most classrooms anyday.

Cramming is as much a part of B&M college life as it is testing.

I have a neighbor that at age 27 is about to get his PHD in Statistics. He got there by challenging over 30% of his classes. That's with taking no classes for two years while serving a mission for his church.

Thanks for slummin' it with us slackers and sharing your wizdom.