Dyscalculia-Math Challenged

[beckysharp]

I was studying the DSM III R which is the Diagnostic Manual for Mental Health Problems (I'm not crazy or bored, but studying Abnormal Psych) and wouldn't you believe it, there's an actual disability that relates to all of us Math challenged people.

Dyscalculia is a term referring to a wide range of life-long learning disabilities involving math. There is no single form of math disability, and difficulties vary from person to person and affect people differently in school and throughout life.

This is real, if you don't believe me just do a Google search.

[Urbannaja]

Originally Posted by beckysharp

I was studying the DSM III R which is the Diagnostic Manual for Mental Health Problems (I'm not crazy or bored, but studying Abnormal Psych) and wouldn't you believe it, there's an actual disability that relates to all of us Math challenged people.

Dyscalculia is a term referring to a wide range of life-long learning disabilities involving math. There is no single form of math disability, and difficulties vary from person to person and affect people differently in school and throughout life.

This is real, if you don't believe me just do a Google search.

Hmm...it sounds like a vampire I wonder if it covers math, or algebra...I always did very well in math, but failed algebra 3 times =/

[spazz]

I think the learning disability is laziness .

I believe anyone can learn math if they put enough effort into it. I am a math major and help students at the math lab at my university (mostly calculus and linear algebra etc). Some people do grasp the ideas faster then others, but I believe it has to do with how much effort they put into their math career in past math classes.

[snazzlefrag]

Originally Posted by spazz

I think the learning disability is laziness .

I believe anyone can learn math if they put enough effort into it. I am a math major and help students at the math lab at my university (mostly calculus and linear algebra etc). Some people do grasp the ideas faster then others, but I believe it has to do with how much effort they put into their math career in past math classes.

Hi Spazz,

In some cases, this is probably true. However, by your very answer, you have inadvertently illustrated another major reason why some people are able to grasp math concepts better than others.

I was somewhat amused by the irony of your response!

Note how your answer is definitive and absolute. It is a quantitative response to a qualitative question. You are a math major, so your mind analyses the problem, and develops a formula to definitively evaluate the solution in terms of one absolute answer. Once you approached the problem in an objective, 'mathematical' way, the answer seemed immediately clear to you.

A + B = C
Taking Math + Failing Math = Laziness

However, someone with more of a qualitative approach to the question would likely come up with many alternative explanations based on many different variables.

A + B = C or maybe D, or maybe E, or perhaps F, or even maybe some combination of C, D, E, and F.

I am someone whose mind tends instinctively to evaluate problems in a qualitative rather than a quantitative way. As a result, I often have difficulty grasping math concepts. I can assure you it is not laziness, it is just that my mind works in a different way than yours. Numbers don't intuitively make sense to me, and solutions don't 'jump off the page' at me.

I can work hard and memorize various formulas, and this will more or less get me by in most math situations. However, my brain has trouble evaluating isssues in terms of absolute and definitive answers, and so math does NOT come naturally to me as it does to you. I just don't think in terms of "black" and "white". I tend to operate in terms of "grey". I see a problem and my brain instantly evaluates it in terms of 'alternatives', 'options', 'variables', 'causality', 'reasons'. This doesn't work too well in math-type subjects where there is usually only one correct solution to any given problem.

Does that make sense at all?

When you evaluated the problem: "Why do people fail math?", your mind immediately took a quantitative approach to finding the solution.

Taking Math + Failing Math = Laziness

That clearly illustrates a key difference in the way different people's minds operate.

Of course your answer is correct in some cases, but not in all cases. There are many developmental, social, economic, psychological, and biological variables that factor into why someone might fail at math.

Laziness is only ONE of any number of answers. The fact that you didn't catch that is probably one reason why you excel at math.

I absolutely agree that effort, commitment, and hard work are important indicators of future excellence at math, or any other subject. But there are also a myriad of reasons why effort, commitment, and hard work might still not result in excellence.

To ignore those other reasons is to illustrate my point. Therein lies the irony of your initial response!


When it comes to passing math exams, I envy your quantitative reasoning skills. But there is more to life than black and white. As you provide much-needed support and guidance to the math students at your university, try not to overlook the "grey". You will likely be a better teacher, and your students will benefit greatly from your empathy and insight.

Kudos to you for your willingness to help others succeed.

I wish you well,
Snazzlefrag

[spazz]

Originally Posted by snazzlefrag

Hi Spazz,

In some cases, this is probably true. However, by your very answer, you have inadvertently illustrated another major reason why some people are able to grasp math concepts better than others.

I was somewhat amused by the irony of your response!

Note how your answer is definitive and absolute. It is a quantitative response to a qualitative question. You are a math major, so your mind analyses the problem, and develops a formula to definitively evaluate the solution in terms of one absolute answer. Once you approached the problem in an objective, 'mathematical' way, the answer seemed immediately clear to you.

A + B = C
Taking Math + Failing Math = Laziness

However, someone with more of a qualitative approach to the question would likely come up with many alternative explanations based on many different variables.

A + B = C or maybe D, or maybe E, or perhaps F, or even maybe some combination of C, D, E, and F.

I am someone whose mind tends instinctively to evaluate problems in a qualitative rather than a quantitative way. As a result, I often have difficulty grasping math concepts. I can assure you it is not laziness, it is just that my mind works in a different way than yours. Numbers don't intuitively make sense to me, and solutions don't 'jump off the page' at me.

I can work hard and memorize various formulas, and this will more or less get me by in most math situations. However, my brain has trouble evaluating isssues in terms of absolute and definitive answers, and so math does NOT come naturally to me as it does to you. I just don't think in terms of "black" and "white". I tend to operate in terms of "grey". I see a problem and my brain instantly evaluates it in terms of 'alternatives', 'options', 'variables', 'causality', 'reasons'. This doesn't work too well in math-type subjects where there is usually only one correct solution to any given problem.

Does that make sense at all?

When you evaluated the problem: "Why do people fail math?", your mind immediately took a quantitative approach to finding the solution.

Taking Math + Failing Math = Laziness

That clearly illustrates a key difference in the way different people's minds operate.

Of course your answer is correct in some cases, but not in all cases. There are many developmental, social, economic, psychological, and biological variables that factor into why someone might fail at math.

Laziness is only ONE of any number of answers. The fact that you didn't catch that is probably one reason why you excel at math.

I absolutely agree that effort, commitment, and hard work are important indicators of future excellence at math, or any other subject. But there are also a myriad of reasons why effort, commitment, and hard work might still not result in excellence.

To ignore those other reasons is to illustrate my point. Therein lies the irony of your initial response!


When it comes to passing math exams, I envy your quantitative reasoning skills. But there is more to life than black and white. As you provide much-needed support and guidance to the math students at your university, try not to overlook the "grey". You will likely be a better teacher, and your students will benefit greatly from your empathy and insight.

Kudos to you for your willingness to help others succeed.

I wish you well,
Snazzlefrag

I disagree, I simply gave you my opinion just like you gave me yours. (Which is obviously qualitative since I based this off of my experience in the math lab with other students.) I have noticed how students seem to have a particular phobia about math. This seems like your case, since you're trying to make excuses to rationalize your math skills. I think your math skills are as good as mine or anyone else’s for that matter. It is simply how much effort you put into learning it. It is just like anything else you might do, if you practice enough, you will eventually learn how to do it.

Some students seem to put math on a pedestal and think its some holy grail or something. When in reality it is just as easy as any other subject you might encounter, it just takes some effort in practicing. The lower level maths like Algebra and Calculus are all Plug-N-Chug Meaning you memorize how to do one problem, then you simply Plug in the numbers, and chug through the arithmetic. It is just as easy as memorizing any other subject (History, Psychology).

[Librevore]

Originally Posted by spazz

I think the learning disability is laziness .

I believe anyone can learn math if they put enough effort into it. I am a math major and help students at the math lab at my university (mostly calculus and linear algebra etc). Some people do grasp the ideas faster then others, but I believe it has to do with how much effort they put into their math career in past math classes.

Hi Spazz,

You say that you are mostly helping students in calculus and linear algebra. Those are both several levels above the basic 100 level college math course that is the min. req. for a degree. Maybe you have just never met anyone like my friend, Sandy.

I met Sandy years ago when I was trying to pursue a degree in a B&M. She was a single mom with an all too typical story who just could not get above the poverty level no matter how hard she worked. So she decided to return to school. Sandy tested out so low on math that she was placed in Math095. She would have to pass this and then move to Math096 before being able to take Math 101 which was the basic req. class. Without 101 she would not be able to get a degree and graduate.

Sandy had a horrible time and asked me to tutor her. We met at least once a week even after I had to withdraw. Sandy failed 095 and repeated it. She failed 096 and repeated it. She failed 101 and repeated it. Two years of struggle and expense that she couldn't really afford.

During this time, I learned that Sandy spent at least an hour every workday and over half of her weekend study time on her math homework. I also learned that a problem that might take me a minute or two could be 15 minutes to a half an hour of work for Sandy. So her notebook may not have had as many solved problems simply due to the tremendous amount of time it took her.

There are formulas that are pretty much fill in the blank for someone who has some math aptitude. But there are a lot of formulas! I noticed that Sandy would get one memorized but then be very unsure of how to apply it. Or would mix two or more formulas up. Or be unable to recognize that two problems were actually the same pattern. And so on.

Sandy was an A & B student in everything else. English, Literature, History, Philosophy, etc. She truly almost despaired of ever becoming a college graduate just because of this one subject. And even though she was succeeding so well in all the other areas her confidence in her own abilities and intelligence took a serious beating.

You can only imagine how thrilled her family and I were when this ordeal was past! I can guarentee you that Sandy would never have even signed up for the next level of math. She would probably rather be drug behind a moving vehicle for 20 feet and then have it back up over her.

Sandy definately didn't struggle with math because of either a lack of intelligence or laziness. Some people just seem to stuggle with math in varying degrees much more than some others. Seems to me we are just all wired different.

If you have a chance, you might check out some of the students who come in who are struggling with the basic classes. I would be willing to wager that some of them are spending a bunch of time trying to get it figured out. You are in a great position to be a real blessing to people. I know that Sandy utilized the math lab tutoring as well as meeting with me and she was Extremely Grateful for all the help they gave her!

Librevore

[Librevore]

Originally Posted by Urbannaja

Hmm...it sounds like a vampire I wonder if it covers math, or algebra...I always did very well in math, but failed algebra 3 times =/

It DOES sound like some kind of vampire! And here I thought that the producers of that old Sesame Street program chose a vampire for math because of his name....now that I think of it that poor vampire never did get past, " 1 green toy, and a 2 green toys, and...."

Librevore

[spazz]

Originally Posted by Librevore

Hi Spazz,

You say that you are mostly helping students in calculus and linear algebra. Those are both several levels above the basic 100 level college math course that is the min. req. for a degree. Maybe you have just never met anyone like my friend, Sandy.

I met Sandy years ago when I was trying to pursue a degree in a B&M. She was a single mom with an all too typical story who just could not get above the poverty level no matter how hard she worked. So she decided to return to school. Sandy tested out so low on math that she was placed in Math095. She would have to pass this and then move to Math096 before being able to take Math 101 which was the basic req. class. Without 101 she would not be able to get a degree and graduate.

Sandy had a horrible time and asked me to tutor her. We met at least once a week even after I had to withdraw. Sandy failed 095 and repeated it. She failed 096 and repeated it. She failed 101 and repeated it. Two years of struggle and expense that she couldn't really afford.

During this time, I learned that Sandy spent at least an hour every workday and over half of her weekend study time on her math homework. I also learned that a problem that might take me a minute or two could be 15 minutes to a half an hour of work for Sandy. So her notebook may not have had as many solved problems simply due to the tremendous amount of time it took her.

There are formulas that are pretty much fill in the blank for someone who has some math aptitude. But there are a lot of formulas! I noticed that Sandy would get one memorized but then be very unsure of how to apply it. Or would mix two or more formulas up. Or be unable to recognize that two problems were actually the same pattern. And so on.

Sandy was an A & B student in everything else. English, Literature, History, Philosophy, etc. She truly almost despaired of ever becoming a college graduate just because of this one subject. And even though she was succeeding so well in all the other areas her confidence in her own abilities and intelligence took a serious beating.

You can only imagine how thrilled her family and I were when this ordeal was past! I can guarentee you that Sandy would never have even signed up for the next level of math. She would probably rather be drug behind a moving vehicle for 20 feet and then have it back up over her.

Sandy definately didn't struggle with math because of either a lack of intelligence or laziness. Some people just seem to stuggle with math in varying degrees much more than some others. Seems to me we are just all wired different.

If you have a chance, you might check out some of the students who come in who are struggling with the basic classes. I would be willing to wager that some of them are spending a bunch of time trying to get it figured out. You are in a great position to be a real blessing to people. I know that Sandy utilized the math lab tutoring as well as meeting with me and she was Extremely Grateful for all the help they gave her!

Librevore

If all the information you said about your friend is true, then it sounds like her real math problem was her laziness to learn math from the beginning. It seems she did not really put much effort into math in highschool, then it came back to haunt her later in life.

I would still be amazed at the time you said she spent studying and did not grasp anything from it. This seems unlikely, since the lower level maths are just Plug-N-Chug like I explained before. It is really a no-brainer if you just remember the simple rules and formula to solve the problems.

Maybe she needed a new tutor?

Anyways, My assumption was not to be taken objectivly. I was simply making a generalization from my experience with students in math.

[Kiwi Lover]

Originally Posted by spazz

If all the information you said about your friend is true, then it sounds like her real math problem was her laziness to learn math from the beginning. It seems she did not really put much effort into math in highschool, then it came back to haunt her later in life.

With an attitude like yours Spazz, I feel sorry for the students you supposedly "help".

[spazz]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Lover

With an attitude like yours Spazz, I feel sorry for the students you supposedly "help".

It is not my attitude, I am just being blunt because this is a forum and thus I figured I would contribute with my opinion.

I guess most of you do not like my views, but I truly believe anyone can do anything they put their mind to. It is just a matter of motivation. I have seen many students who are like this "guy" who does not like math, says I just do not understand it. But when it comes down to losing his 5000 dollar scholarship, he buckles down and gets an A on the test. I have seen this many times.

I believe in being honest with yourself instead of making excuses and saying: "I just cannot do math." If you have that attitude, then you are not going to be able to do math.